Permission to Heal Episode #80- A Conversation with David Hennessey about Using WONDER to Simplify Your Life

Join me as I chat with David Hennessey about The WONDER Technique, personal development & simplifying our unique goals.

20 years ago, David Hennessey created a holistic personal development program called The WONDER Technique that has continued to evolve over the years. David has presented The WONDER Technique at 100s of workshops and seminars. His formal training is in Psychology and nutrition, and he has traveled to over 20 countries and lived in three long-term. His goal is to give the fundamental tools of personal development to everyone on the planet. He is passionate about “Simplifying the ability for people to live happy healthy lives.” He also loves hiking and rock climbing!

 David is offering a special free package of personal development tools at https://thewondertechnique.com/wonderful-community-gifts/

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Transcript

Permission to Heal Epsiode 80 with Guest - David Hennessey

The wonder technique is an acronym that helps people remember the core principles of health and well. Hmm... I'm a person who likes to simplify and I wanted to create an acronym. So what does wonder stand.  W is for water, O is for outside activity, N is for no worries. 

[00:00:17] Happy state of mind D is for delicious, nutritious foods, E is for exercise and R is for rest, which includes sleep very simple, very much to the point self-care self-care. And if you think about it each day in the morning, what do I need to do to take care of my health and wellbeing? 

Hello everyone. And welcome to permission to heal. I am Marci Brockmann and I am really thrilled that you are here today. Today we have David Hennessy at the podcast. He was previously on episode 25 during season one. And we had such a wonderful conversation about healing and about self-care and self-regulation that we both wanted to do it. 

[00:00:31] So he is here today. David created a holistic personal development program called the wonder technique that has continued to evolve over many years. He has presented the wonder technique in hundreds of workshops and seminars and his formal training in psychology and nutrition has really informed all of his research. 

[00:00:51] He has traveled to over 20 countries and lived in three long term. He is at least bilingual, if not tri. And his goal, his mission is to give the fundamental tools of personal development and regulation and management to everyone on the planet. He is passionate about simplifying the ability for people to live happy, healthy lives. 

[00:01:14] And he also loves hiking and rock climbing. We talked about everything. We talked about self care and self-regulation we talked about the vendor technique and how to apply it. We talked about forgiveness of one's self and of others and relentless self-compassion and. Compassion for others and why all of this is important, not only as tools for our own personal growth, but as tools to be better parents and to be better friends and spouses and neighbors and family members. 

[00:01:43] And we just had a lovely, lovely conversation. We talked about a couple of books. That you can find in the permission to heal podcast bookshop on bookshop.org, as well as all of the books of all of my past present and future guests. And then when you order them from the permission to heal bookshop on bookshop.org, they get sourced from local and independent bookshops and not gigantically, large multinational corporations, which is always a. 

[00:02:13] So please join me in welcoming David Hennessy to permission to heal. Thanks so much.
 

[00:00:00] How are you David? I'm so excited that you're here again. Oh, I am too Marcy. I really appreciate being able to have the opportunity to come back on your show and receive your positive energy with such a good experience. And as we had a little chat before we started recording, uh, I have great memories of the prior podcast. 

[00:00:16] Yeah. And I re-listed to it about a week ago. And I thought that was a great experience. So I was really excited to come back. I felt the same way. I felt the same way you were part of the first half of season one, I believe. And, uh, yes. And now you hear this is, you know, season two deep, deep in the trenches as they say. 

[00:00:34] So you're from, you're in France and I'm in New York. It's about one in the afternoon here. So what is it about seven or eight by you? It's just after seven. Yeah. Six hours difference. And it's currently unusually hot for this time of year yesterday. It was 30 degrees Celsius, which is, uh, we're talking. 

[00:00:54] That must be in the nineties, which for me is not normal in France. No. So it looks like we might have a very hot summer and I heard on met France two weeks ago. If for those people who want the international weather forecast, sure they, um, they said that they've had 37% less rain year over year in France. 

[00:01:13] Wow. 37%. I thought I'd misheard it, but no, it wasn't. And I'm like, and this is Matthew drought conditions pretty dry. Like today. I haven't seen rain. Weeks. And today it tried to rain for, I'm not kidding. Less than the minute. It was, it was like the clouds just kind of had dropped a few and I was like, oh, it's gonna rain. 

[00:01:33] No, no it didn't rain. That's cool. And when I look at that, of course, do you want some of ours? Oh, you can send me some, I love the rain. I'm Irish. Should I send me, it sent me to rain, please. I love labor days. So yeah, it's very I like the rain. So, but the French people, of course, most of them really love the sunshine, but I still hear them now start saying, wow, it's hot because in may, normally it should be in the, I think it's normally in the twenties, like low twenties Celsius. 

[00:01:59] So like in the seventies, not in the nineties, like it's unusual, but I don't know if it'll get, it was 114 degrees. FHE. So 44 degrees Celsius. That's approximate for those people listening that can do the math on this. Mm-hmm in 2019 when, uh, and I was here in the same location that was insanely hot. I never experienced that since I was in Pakistan. 

[00:02:21] So, and Pakistan was hot. Yeah. I think I heard yesterday that there's like a heat bubble. I don't know what the technical term of that is over, like the Northeast portion, the new England portion of the United States and Northeastern Canada. Wow. Um, that it's unseasonably hot. Yes. Probably not the same air mass that's over France right now. 

[00:02:46] Yeah. But, uh, but I think, you know, climate change is the thing, science is real, you know, it is. So yeah. We're gonna keep feeling the effects of these things with unpredictable weather. Yeah. Unless we do something significant and severe about, uh, Curtailing fossil fuel emissions, but it's not a it's step to you. 

[00:03:10] And I, you know, yeah. We can only vote and spend our money in ethically conscious places and in ways that match our values and pray the people we vote for do the right thing. Exactly. That's kind of it. And, and the key, uh, to me, it's like really, it all comes down to our own individual actions, own individual responsibilities. 

[00:03:31] Mm-hmm because we take the power back when we do that is, you know, which are podcast permission to heal. When we allow ourselves to heal Marc, when we allow ourselves to take responsibilities for the hard things going on in our lives. And I was totally impressed with a friend of mine called me the today to tell me that they'd taken steps and I keep this as private as I can. 

[00:03:53] So, uh, they had taken steps to, in their life to work by going to therapy, to work on stuff. Good. And they made like, they ch within seven months of deep action, they had changed. And they had, because we're frequently in contact and, and the joy was really there. And I was, I told, yeah, I told his friend. I'm totally impressed, cuz I'm really, really happy for this person. 

[00:04:18] Like I'm trying to hide the information. Yeah. Uh, but I'm really happy because not everybody will do that. But the thing is is that they took responsibility and they went out to work on the stuff. Yeah. And, and they're the only ones who can exactly. And we can't change anybody around us. So many times I see the things in the world around me that I can't change. 

[00:04:38] Mm-hmm um, as I mentioned, you earlier lost water in, in my home completely because someone else had done something to shut off the water that I didn't even know about. And there's nothing that I could, I couldn't control that I just had to see how do I deal with it? Right. And that's how we grow through the process. 

[00:04:53] So we do have prob problems and changes with the climate and that. So how do we work with that? We make our own individual decisions and I remember. Somebody in the past, it could have been one of my parents that said to me, you know, clean up your own home first, clean up your own doorstep. That's an old phrase, you know, don't, don't tell other people to take care of their wellbeing if you're not working on it yourself. 

[00:05:15] And then if everybody took care of their own business, what would it be like? Right. Sounds so simple. What world would be, uh, better managed and cleaner yeah. To follow the same metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. It's true. You gotta start, start, start. What is it? Act locally and think globally or something. 

[00:05:39] What is that phrase? Something that, yes. That's. I think you've got it. You've got it exactly right. Yes. You know, you do, you, you really only have control over your own little perimeter and you are the only one who can manage any of that really. And that's very powerful. Yeah. I mean, it's really powerful for those people listening. 

[00:05:57] Like for me, when I was younger, I used to defer decision making to other people, me too. And I look back on that, uh, I forgive myself for doing it, but I regret doing it because I, I avoided making decisions that avoided me getting experiences that I would've learned from sooner in my life. Right. You know? 

[00:06:17] And so now I'm willing to make decisions that are not always, I don't always know what kind of thing's gonna work out for sure, but I will learn from it. And then the key, as I hear from, uh, Ray Dalio, who wrote a book called principles that I'm rereading, he said, the important thing is keep track of the decisions that you made that worked out to be good, positive results. 

[00:06:37] So you don't keep on having to remake the same decision, but be aware of the right things. And then you actually take less, I know. Yeah, exactly. You take less bandwidth away for, oh, when I do this, it works out. So I'll keep doing this and if it doesn't work out sometime, well, then I'll adjust it, but there's no need to change something if it's already working. 

[00:06:56] Right. Why change it? Cause there's plenty of other things that need, you know, fixing it adjustment. Absolutely. Absolutely. So where do we begin? Um, last time you were here, we talked about your wonder technique a little bit mm-hmm mm-hmm and what the acronym stands for and how we put those ideas into practice. 

[00:07:14] And maybe it, it, it bears going back to that, to delve into that a little bit more deeply and, and then progressed from there for sure. And in fact, I didn't explain. The acronym in detail. And I'm gonna do that today, Marcy, for sure. Okay. So for those people listening, um, I know people who attend, um, workshops and seminars, I do usually as part of their participation, they get a little bookmark, which has the wonder technique on it. 

[00:07:40] So if people wanna make notes, uh, this is my idea that I came up with in 1999. And they're welcome to make notes and on the idea, cuz the wonder technique is an acronym that helps people remember the core principles of health and well. Hmm. And it came about, as I might have mentioned before on the, on the prior podcast, by me trying to figure out ways to remember things in my own life, after going through things and also to in the, in the history of my mom, working on health and wellbeing, helping supported her people. 

[00:08:10] But I had so much information balancing around all over the place. I'm a person who likes to simplify and I wanted to create an acronym. And really, I stumbled on it. I was messing around with piles of papers on the floor ID information about drinking water, I'd information about exercise. And I was looking for a sensible word. 

[00:08:28] Put it all together. So here it is the wonder technique w and this is really simple. So people should be able to, you know, stop listening after five minutes here. I hope they don't, but stop after five minutes and then they, they they'll actually go. I remember this. So wonder what does wonder stand for w is for water always for outside activity and is for no worries. 

[00:08:49] You know, happy state of mind D is for delicious, nutritious foods, E is for exercise and, or is for rest, which includes sleep very simple, very much to the point self-care self-care. And if you think about it each day in the morning, what do I need to do to take care of my health and wellbeing? And at the end of the day you go, okay, did I drink some water? 

[00:09:08] Did I get outside? You know, how did I think about things? What was I eating? Did I exercise myself? Move my body doesn't mean you have to go to the gym. Did I really move myself? Have I taken the time to rest? And you can look in the morning. Did I have a good night's sleep? You start to actually build habits around core principles that you know, now I can go really deep on each one of those concepts, but as long as you start to integrate them, because there's a lot of people, Marcy dead, they work on one of those areas. 

[00:09:36] They silo them out. Like they're really good at hydrating themselves, but they don't pay enough attention to the fact that they need to eat a certain balanced meal or for me is rest. I don't I'm so the restful and so involved in so many things that I don't give myself enough opportunity to rest, which is why I get sick too much. 

[00:09:52] So that has to be something that I prioritize and what you're saying for the listeners really pieces together. Um, what I spoke to Dr. Stewart Schenker about on a previous episode about self-regulation and increasing our own brain's dopamine production, which helps us then self-regulate better and deal with stress. 

[00:10:16] Yes. So the wonder technique. Are actual, physically easy strategies to use to apply Dr. Shanker's anti-stress techniques in dopamine production. And self-regulation. So if you're listening to multiple episodes, these two fit together very well. Wonderful. I have not listened to that episode, but that is my goal. 

[00:10:38] Well, it hasn't dropped yet. I just interviewed him okay. An hour ago, so okay. Okay. So then, so it will show up the week before yours shows up in, in season two, so wonderful. And. The key for the listeners is really it's, that's what my goal was. I mean, I would do seminars, conferences, and people would walk away and they would remember wonder like, and, and, and, and it's, it's wonderful. 

[00:11:00] Yeah. I mean, all the stuff plays out and it was, it's a beautiful word. It's not some unusual acronym. Like, I, I feel blessed that it came to me and, and I I've written about it many, many different times, but it's just such a simple way because I mean, I can't repeat it more. You, you talk about hydration. 

[00:11:17] I've got my glass, my bottle of water beside me. How do you create the water habit? You make it available and you drink water throughout the day. That's it. On a simple level, you can get more depth into it, but outside activity, you start your day taking some time in the fresh air. And if you do that, everything, one of the things that's important for listeners to identify Marcy is that all of these things cross over, they all impact each other, right? 

[00:11:41] If you're not properly hydrated, you won't sleep properly. If you don't sleep properly, you can't think clearly if you're not sleeping enough, it'll impact how much food and what types of food you eat. And like everything is all inter inter correlated for me, inter um, interactive and going outside. I start today, always will, I will walk and I get some fresh air and therefore I get expose myself. 

[00:12:01] It's a natural light. And that's really important too, for psychologic psychological approach. And we talked about in, in the last podcast, um, a little synopsis for people. I always start today by thinking about what I'm grateful for and I write it down and I end the day the same way. And that's practicing the no worries. 

[00:12:18] This is what I'm framing my day. I'm framing as to what I want see happen and what I'm grateful for. And for sure, when I write down at the end of the day today, I'll be grateful for this time we spent together. Like, I'm happy for that. And it, thank you. And, and I, and I'm reinforcing what I want to see happen. 

[00:12:34] Yeah. Cause the danger is you reinforced the wrong stuff, right? Yeah. So exercise is an important one because I, um, sometimes on the seminars, when I share with people, they start thinking, oh, I've gotta go to gym. Gotta do dance. Says no, find something you love to do to move your body and call it. Exercise could be dance for me. 

[00:12:53] It can be rock climbing or hiking things I love to do. It could be cleaning your house. It doesn't matter. Yeah. You're, you're physically moving your body and then there, I mean, then you can stretch it out a little bit. No pun intended. If you do some, a lot of people do some form of stretching or yoga or something, although yoga is not stretching, but, but you know what I mean? 

[00:13:12] Like they, yeah, that's really important for us as we get, as we age on in time. And, and that actually, yoga's probably really good for people who need to practice balance mm-hmm cause by not only do we need take time to make sure that our bodies are moving, but as we get older, people can be a fatal mistake. 

[00:13:29] Not to have a good sense of balance. Cause you can fall and break a hip. Yeah. So throughout your life and you wanna make sure that it's a habit that you will love to do. Like when it comes to exercise, it's gotta be something you will do, regardless of people telling you or. That's really important. And I always share that with people. 

[00:13:45] And then some people say, well, I'm limited. I can't necessarily do that and say, well, hang on a second. Have you ever heard the story, your Bruce Lee? I was sure where people, Bruce Lee actually had one leg shorter than the other. And he was shortsighted. And for those people who know who he is, is probably one of the best martial artists history most well known. 

[00:14:03] Yes. He chose a wing Chung because it was for close end fighting because he was shortsighted. He wore glasses. So he adapted his activity more activity for him. Of course it was a way of life, but into his life, he chose what worked for him. So if you do an activity, you can't do pick something. So to wonder technique in comp brings together a lot of stuff, but I'm hoping that people can just take it themselves and run with it in their own lives. 

[00:14:28] And I would like, uh, literally everybody on the planet to have the wonder technique in their pocket. That's my. In simple terms. Well, I mean, technically we do, you know, you don't need any specialized equipment, your memberships, you you're born with the ability to, to practice this just by being human. Yes. 

[00:14:49] So being aware of what the techniques are and why we should do them and why we should habituate them is I is, is, is the key here? I think. Yes. Yeah. That's probably the most important thing that came out of the seminars that I've done over the years. Cuz I've had nurses in attendance and say, I never knew water was so important. 

[00:15:09] Cause I would explain how water functions in your body just to con almost convince people as to why they needed to drink water mm-hmm and then to make the habit. So make it available, make it portable Curry with you and it'll become a habit. And once it becomes a habit, it's like you, I start to go. I'm going out the door and I don't have my water bottle. 

[00:15:28] Yeah. It becomes ingrained. I walk around with this red water bottle. I put little kitty cat stickers all over it. Yeah. So it doesn't get confused with other people's water bottles. Good idea. And, um, and I, I love it. I just take it everywhere. It's brilliant. I mean, and, um, everything I can, I can take the wonder technique and you can find it in your own life, what you need to do, how to, you know, the exercise picks something you love to do when it comes to foods. 

[00:15:53] I mean, you can get as simple as saying, you know, each stuff that's in season that's as local is a very good choice. If food that says fresh as possible and as close to as natural origin as possible. So orange juice is not the same as eating an orange, right? That's very simple. People can recognize that mm-hmm 

[00:16:10] And so you, you can put it down to that. Then you can get really deep on, you know, the impact of omega tree omega nine and omega six and so forth. But on a simple level, it can just really get down to core ideas and how you look at the world, as well. As we talked a little bit on our kind of pre-chat about the importance of our state of mind, how we focus on things, how we experience things. 

[00:16:34] I think this is really important. Yeah, it's just in, in a lot of cases, it's just a simple mindset, mindset shift. Yes. From like you were talking about with the water instead of getting angry and just being really pissed off that you didn't have water. Yes. You, you calmly in a way, took it in stride and said, okay, now I have to be a detective and figure out why. 

[00:16:55] Yes. What's the problem here. Yes. And then you go about fixing it. Whereas if you had used the old paradigm and freaked out and been really pissed and angry, it would impede the process of, of actually finding a solution. Yes. You know, and I, um, I, I talk to, to students all the time, cause I I'm an English teacher also who let anger or their preconceived notion about what somebody else's thought is get in the way of them understanding really what's going on. 

[00:17:29] And so I feel like I have these kinds of conversations with students quite regularly. Yeah, they don't, you know, they, they, they know I'm a trusted person for a lot of kids. I'm like school mom, you know? Yeah. So they come to me at a fight with my dad and all we do is yell at each other and he doesn't understand what I mean, and it just escalates and then doors get slammed and I'm like, all right. 

[00:17:48] So you need to actually have a calm conversation with him and figure what actually is going on here. You know? And, and so I give them techniques, but a lot of it is a mindset, a mindset shift, you know, ki a parent misinterprets, what the kid, the kid's response. And maybe what the kid said that was disrespectful was a stress response and not an actual, you know, misbehavior kind of thing. 

[00:18:18] And so the, the parent being punitive would escalate the stress response so that the kid would shut down. You know, like there's a bazillion ways we could apply this. Actually, this is really important as you mentioned, it's amazing. Uh, cause when I look at my own children, how wise they can be, because like, even when you think of neurologically referring back to a little bit about the neurons and the painting that you have behind you, that we forget sometimes as parents. 

[00:18:50] And I will say that as a parent and I'm not speaking for all parents, but I sometimes forget as a parent let's quote it that way that my children are young. They're below 25 years of age. And when you're 25 years of age is when you reach integration of most of your brain. So if you imagine when somebody is prior to that age and they're making decisions and sometimes they'll blurt out and say something to me and I'm like, that doesn't make any sense, like 

[00:19:16] And if I go after that, there's no point in going after that. It's because hang. I probably said the same thing when I was a teenager and also I need to kinda let it fall and see, well, is there more coming after that? And I say that sometimes the wrong things come outta my mouth too. Right. I mean, we don't do that. 

[00:19:34] We all do that. So we have to owner ownership and responsibility of that and then mitigating the damage and exactly really rephrasing what we actually meant. Yes. Is important. Exactly. We have to mirror that for our kids. Yes. And we have to give, uh, everybody around us, the opportunity. to respond in whatever way they need to, for example, back to my children that hang on. 

[00:19:59] Okay. Let's see. Where, where does that go? Because if I immediately go after that point or that action, it might have been just a mistake. Like, you know what? Right. One of my sons will come to me, dad, you left the light on again in that room. And I it's because I just, my mind was elsewhere. It, I left it on and I went you're right, sure. 

[00:20:14] I go back and turn it off as again, saying, oh, you're criticizing me because I didn't do that. No, that's all. That's mumbo jumbo in my brain. It's true. I left the light on, just go turn it off and thanks for letting me know. So it's, we do things and it depends on how we respond. Now. This is all to say in full disclosure to everybody listening. 

[00:20:33] I was not always that way. I used to react and now I've really taken the time to respond, work and look at and respond, like look at myself and my behavior. And the good news is for those listening, uh, is that. You get to look at things over time and, and build better habits also to kinda smile and giggle at how you responded. 

[00:20:54] And, but also you need to prepare, like, we, we mentioned a little bit about the water here, but people listening, they might think we're talking about drinking water. What happened was that the water went out in my home and this has happened a few times, the French village. And I will go to the city hall and they'll say, oh yeah, they're doing a renovation in some of the piping. 

[00:21:11] Okay. And they'll be off for a few hours. Well, I went there today. Nope. Wasn't a reason. So then I phoned what's called a metropolitan the water system and they said, Nope, nothing's going on there? And I'm like, well, I got zero water what's going on. Right. So I thought this could go on for a while if I don't address it. 

[00:21:27] And then I phoned a neighbor whose number I happen to have to ask, did they have water? And they said, um, well, I'm actually walking, walking, working on my water system. I said, I think my water system and it termed out is connected to Dursts. Now that's an unusual thing to have happen, but they have the shutoff that controls the water in my home and they didn't know. 

[00:21:49] So the preparation was is that I actually have some water that I store in case of emergency so I could manage, but I didn't have water for seven hours, but I didn't get all angry and upset at the neighbor nor at the situation I just dealt with. It found out what the problem was, then knew while it'll be resolved in the period of the day. 

[00:22:07] And I have some water to back up things. So it's alright. So preparation helps. We talked about that before the last podcast about the French Irish phrase B all of which means. Be prepared and it's, um, it's an idea that, you know, prepare for things. So when we went through all the challenges, especially in France, when we had a major lockdown in the pandemic, having some extra food put aside that you can have for yourself and share what neighbors in need is really important. 

[00:22:35] And now in Europe, I'm experiencing that. There's a real lack of access to some foods is starting and also in terms of access to, um, shall we say fossil fuel? Yeah, we're not gonna run outta the sun in the sky, but we don't have a lot of solar power in, in France. So fuel has gone up. So it's a good idea to make sure that if you planning a trip to make sure that you buy fuel, because I remember back in the early 1970s when there was a fuel crisis shortage in the lines. 

[00:23:04] And yeah, I remember that I, I went to, I went to pump up the tires on my bicycle and I was like, why are all these cars all over the place? And it was cuz it was a few I wasn't driving at that time. Yeah. I like, oh my gosh. I remember waiting on the line with my dad and his car. And it was, yeah, today's not our dating a guest today is our dating a guest, you know? 

[00:23:22] Yeah. It's tough. So that's preparation and also being gentle with. And that comes from practice. And I think we build on it. It gets, it's a snowball effect. It's the same as saving money. Like building relationships. It's over time we build relationships. It's not just in one experience. So in our own minds, Marcia, I, I believe that it has really helped me to, to work on myself, to build on things over time. 

[00:23:50] And then at the same time, as you mentioned with the students in the school to recognize that anybody else I'm interacting with, I don't know how bad their day is. Right. You just never know. You don't know what's happened to them. You never know. And there are, could be a million reasons why a kid comes in in whatever kind of mood he or she comes in. 

[00:24:08] And unless you ask and listen without judgment, you and, and, and have a rapport enough where they're willing to tell you, yes, you don't know. So you can't make a judgment or. What's the word I'm looking for. You, you can't make an assumption. Mm-hmm about how anybody is feeling or how ready they are for a particular learning experience or a, a particular interaction it's pays to, to be self regulated so that you can. 

[00:24:41] then have a relationship with other people and, and, and have the dialogue. Yes, exactly. And I know that when it comes to, I mean, I'm no expert on parenting, I'm a parent, but I'm no expert on it, but managing, um, it's not even word, managing's not the right word, but having a happy life, what your children doesn't start. 

[00:24:59] Don't working on that for when they're teenagers, you gotta start on that when they're really young. Okay. It's a continuation. It's not a separation because if you wait till then to start building relationship with your children, it may be too late in a sense, because they get so much going on their plate. 

[00:25:14] Now, you know, my children where it's like, they're busy on their own lives, they're moving out, they're doing things mm-hmm, , um, moving around for me. And, uh, you know, spending time with their friends, they don't have as much time with me. So if whatever relationship I had prior to that, and that's what you mentioned here. 

[00:25:29] If you've got a relationship with the student, they will open up to you. Right. And that that'll be, I've learned some hard lessons in my own life that if I haven't learned how to build relationship over time with people, then when there's a challenge, you don't have any sort of foundation to work with, which is, and, and you lose the, uh, availability of that person or that relationship as a source of joy or a source of advice or support yes. 

[00:25:55] Or, or any of that. And that's really the reason that human beings evolved to need a community. Yes. You know, none of us can survive on our own in indefinitely. Yes. Um, and, and I, I, I am grateful for the relationship that I have been able to build with my kids over time, because now my youngest is 21 in graduating college in two days. 

[00:26:19] And wow. Um, you know, and, and they're all embarking on, on adult lives of their own. And. I get to be a part of the joy of that and their successes. And they're, they're striving for new things, but I'm, I'm also the place where they go with questions. You know, how do I handle this? Am I, is this a good rental agreement to sign? 

[00:26:43] What do we think about this job? You know, whatever the, the decisions are or the thought processes are that they're making in their lives. They include me and wow. I love that wonder. I don't, I don't for a second. Take that for granted, you know? Yes, that's wonderful. And your words there, not taking it for granted shows that you've taken the time to nourish that. 

[00:27:07] And it's, it's all over time. Mm-hmm and also. When it comes to any sort of relationship I've learned as well, too. And when I talk with people, I learn from their lives too, to, to never give up. I mean, you, at a certain point, sometimes relationships are over and that's okay. But, uh, like, you know, it could be a relationship, but somebody, uh, romantic relationship or so forth, but we, your children, sometimes they, they need to go a certain way. 

[00:27:32] And then in time they will come back is, and, and it's the loving embrace that you, you keep sending them that you're there, you're available. You know what, uh, maybe we don't get along right now, but always take the position, uh, of under doing your best to understand. Although sometimes life is just so difficult to understand. 

[00:27:51] And I always remember, my mom used to tell me when I was younger. Life's not meant to be easy, David. And I was like, yeah, yeah, you're right. No life is supposed to be easy, but now I realize no, there is challenges. And sometimes there's decisions that one has to make that. Sometimes are impossible to make. 

[00:28:08] It feels like you don't know what to do. Yeah. You know? Yeah. There are a lot of, a lot of difficulties and, and things, bad things happen. Yeah. And there isn't a rhyme or reason sometimes and asking why gets you nowhere, but in a circle by yourself. Yeah. And you just have to, I mean, I hate to say the word just cuz it implies that things are easy, but you get to a point where you, you, you have to accept what is and control your response to it. 

[00:28:38] Exactly. And that's kind of it, you know, and kind of just pray that it works out in a, in a favorable way for as many people as possible. Yes. Uh, and it involves taking risk and uh, and I am sharing from myself, uh, in the sense that you have to get outside your comfort. Uh, and now when I've talked to a lot of people, because of going through the pandemic, some people, you know, for me, um, it's easy for me to be on my own and quite, uh, introverted in that way, but I love meeting people. 

[00:29:12] Uh, and I, I have great joy in connecting with people. And when people say to me that, you know, what do I do now? Friendships people that I've known, people have moved and everything during the pandemic. Now I feel isolated. How can I reconnect? And I think one of the greatest tools that we have right now is to decide to take a small portion of your time. 

[00:29:31] Cuz let's assume people just have a small portion and volunteer. Yeah. Do volunteer in an activity that you enjoy. And that you feel would be of benefit to your people. And my latest example for myself is when I moved to France, I didn't speak a word of French. And it, as a, as a native English speaker, it was enormously difficult for me to live in an environment where I couldn't understand nothing. 

[00:29:57] And I, the situation without explaining the whole history as to why I would end up in friends with my children. But just the whole story was is that coming here and then not speaking, the language was very, very stressful. And now I can speak the language. So I know how much easier it is when I'm talking to the tax office or like today the water gets cut off. 

[00:30:18] I can phone the metropolitan. I can phone the, the water service and asked him what's going on. If I could not do. I would still have amazing amount of stress. So I actually call barriers to communication literally. Yeah. Huge, huge. And so what I did is I went to one of the local, um, libraries. Uh, they call it a media tech, cuz they've more than just have books in there and I volunteered and I'll start in September to do for people who want to learn English. 

[00:30:45] From somebody who's Anglophone, but also speaks French that's outside of my comfort zone. But the idea is that people that will show up will be people who, at least the librarian told me, people that are French, who want to be able to communicate more with English, speaking people. Now, bear in mind. I'm the only English speaking person in my village. 

[00:31:03] So I'm going to another location. Yes. I'm only native speaker. So I'm going to an area where there's a few more people that speak English so I can help them bridge the gap between English and French. I have the capacity to do that. That's and nourish the conversation. And there's plenty of French people that actually have a good understanding of English, but they don't have the confidence to speak. 

[00:31:23] Mm-hmm that helps unify. If, if a French person can speak some English and an English person can speak some French, you can build bridges to communications, to relationships and to, to avoid misunderstandings. Yeah. So like the neighbor who shut off my water today, I is, is French, you know, is not English. So I had to communicate with a French. 

[00:31:43] What if I couldn't speak the language? Like it would've been like crazy zone to try and do it's you've been playing charades. Yeah, exactly. And, and so dictionary, you know exactly. I had done that when I first came to France to find a problem about a problem with a car, I could draw the car parts, but they were like, what is this guy drawing for? 

[00:31:59] But the whole idea is. I remember how stressful that experience was. And my idea is to relieve the stress in order people. So, and that's gonna be outside my comfort zone. I ain't never done that before, but I figured if it's gonna help, I'm gonna grow from it. I will meet new people. And that's the thing. 

[00:32:17] The only reason why I mentioned volunteering and not suggesting people do what I'm doing, but when you volunteer like an, uh, another friend of mine, volunteers at what we would call like, um, a food service where people who don't have enough food who are food insecure and meets hundreds and hundreds of people, mm-hmm, , uh, all the time. 

[00:32:34] And that's very nourishing. It also puts things in perspective, but you're also giving of your time. And when you're working with other people, other volunteers, you make new friendships. They're like-minded people like what a better, I mean, I can go hiking cuz I love hiking and I meet people who like hiking so you can make new friendships that way. 

[00:32:51] But other ways you can do great social good. When you volunteer yourself to help out. Now there's only always a limit because there's a certain point where you have to work to actually be compensated financial for your time. But when there's no barrier, like the library couldn't pay me for my time. I didn't ask to be paid for my time, but it's a way of helping out. 

[00:33:10] So all of that to be so precise is that for people that are moving through loss of friendships or feeling a little bit on, on this, uh, outta center, um, after the pandemic and great idea will be just explore volunteering. Yeah. I think that's a great idea. I know, um, many years ago my mom, um, I don't know how to tell the story without she, my mother suffered from bipolarity and was an UN undiagnosed and self-medicated, and eventually that led to opiate addiction, which killed her. 

[00:33:47] But before we got to how bad that all was, there was a long period of time where she was lonely and she didn't necessarily have to get a job because finances weren't a problem, but she needed to meet people and was shy and didn't know how to go about doing it. And she wasn't really a joiner to go join a community group of some sort, but she loves kids, loved kids. 

[00:34:15] So my suggestion for her was to go volunteer at a local preschool or a local daycare who to read stories to little kids yes. Or go help them on the playground or whatever. And she would meet the other teachers or other grownups in the school and spend her day surrounded by. The energy and exuberance and, and joy of small kids. 

[00:34:37] And I wish that she had taken me up on that suggestion, but she couldn't let herself somehow. Mm it's sad. But I think that could have really helped her outlook and the, the level of hope that she had for her life and made her feel more connected. So, you know, I mean, anything like, like you're saying any sort of volunteer work where it puts you out in the community, bringing meaning to your own life and others is always a good choice. 

[00:35:08] It is. And actually one of the things that, and I feel for the situation that you mentioned about your mom and you, I believe you were, you were giving a very good suggestion, cuz I can reflect that in another friend of mine, who's going through some difficulty in a personal relationship, decided to go out and volunteer. 

[00:35:27] And by volunteering, they found, Hey, I actually do have value as a person cuz in the relationship they didn't feel like they had any value. And by separating yourself from that and meeting other people, you kind of get a whole new perspective on who you are and it can also help you get perspective on, okay, what things do I need to change within in myself potentially. 

[00:35:47] And what things I need to nourish might also discover that you have some innate talents in things or skills that things can then be applied to other parts of your life. Exactly. You know, whether it's improving relationships or getting a different job that brings you more joy or money or success or satisfaction or something like yes, maybe you're undercutting yourself in certain areas and volunteering or trying something new shows you a whole new perspective on yourself and allows you to do something else. 

[00:36:15] Exactly. And actually those things that we do outside of our home, outside of our relationships actually really do help. And I'm, I'm sharing this because I've heard so much from other people saying they nourish the relationships that we have. We need time away. Yeah. To make us glow more. And also for our, that's not only for people that we're in relationship with it, like, um, you know, romantic relationship, spouse and so forth, but also for our children, it's important for our children to see that we do other things that we have other interests to go, because maybe we might inspire them on the same thing. 

[00:36:48] Or maybe we'll just inspire, 'em say, Hey, you know what? Dad's always talked, or mom's always talked about doing this and they're actually doing it exactly. Lead by example, show them possible. Yes. It was like a, there's a quote that I I'm gonna butcher. Oh my God. I'm gonna butcher it. Um, something like the greatest tragedy for a child is the unlived life of a parent. 

[00:37:11] Oh, wow. So. Not doing the things that you should do to take care of yourself, not learning how to self regulate, not learning how to do self care, not taking the time to dig deep and figure out who you are and what your values are. And then living within those values, you know, walking the talk, so to speak, not doing those things, teaches your kids, not to do those things. 

[00:37:34] And if you have empty words that say, you know, to your kids, that they should do X, Y, and Z, and you're not doing that yourself, they're gonna go, what the hell does she know? You know? And, um, I, I, I think that regardless of the actual specifics of the tasks that you're doing, like you said, just the sheer fact that you are doing them is makes you a role model for your kids. 

[00:37:59] You know, them seeing me get my heart broken while I was dating. Yeah. Okay. Who wants to do that? But it teaches them resilience. Yes. You know, maybe they don't make the same mistakes or maybe they do, but. Go. This happened to mom and she cried and felt her feelings and then went past it, you know? Yes. Mom's held down three jobs and worked and gone back to school and, you know, still took us to Scouts and baseball. 

[00:38:23] And we can do that too. You know, like look at the things that people can do when they're motivated and when they tap into their strength and their resilience. So great, great examples. Yes. Wow. You know, I, and, and, and I've heard that from my kids, cuz at the time when I was going through all of that crap and I'm like, this really sucks cuz I'm not there for them. 

[00:38:43] The way I should be. Like I was really mad at myself. Um, and now that they're young adults, I hear that they've learned from those lessons from seeing me go through things and it's helped them make better, healthier, or at least more self aware decisions in their own lives. Which what more could a parent want? 

[00:39:02] Exactly. Exactly. And I, I remember hearing years ago, the job of parent is to actually let, let the children level up, go to a higher level, never to hold them back. So if they can, you know, avoid some mistakes, like I always say to my children, don't move to another country without when you don't know the language. 

[00:39:23] Like I don't, I mean, some people say, well, you gotta let them learn from no, no, no. Some things you just don't want, like, it's like, it's like saying go to another state or another country without a job either. Yeah. I mean, I did the boat at the same time, so I mean, so you like, at least a work visa, you know, like let's do some of well that, well, I, I mean, I was, I was able to be able to live here legally. 

[00:39:46] That's great. But, uh, but beyond that, yeah, it was like, oh my gosh, why didn't I think of those details when I moved for something, you know, for somebody who was really ill, it was, it was important, but I needed to think about the other stuff mm-hmm so I, I IM willing to say to my children, you know, Be aware, don't do those things and then learn exactly. 

[00:40:05] Can you learn from any mistakes I'm doing? And if you see glaring mistakes, please point 'em out. So then I can figure out too, because I'm still a work in progress. You are. It's wonderful. What you said, like when your children come around, people will be surprised because really children of all ages, right? 

[00:40:20] From the data born, they're observing everything you do. Yep. They're hearing everything you do. And if you think that they're not listening, even if they, you know, they're in other part, it's terribly mistaken. oh yeah. You're you're even if they tell you they're ignoring you, they're not exactly. Yeah. 

[00:40:37] They're everything. And so if you think that they have an unusual habit, then you don't like the habit that they have because it's hurting them. What closely are you doing the same habit or are you doing a similar version of the habit? Like, you know, if you, as an adult, if I'm to say to myself, well, I can't change that about myself ex habit. 

[00:40:55] If you're saying that you're teaching your children, that you cannot change something mm-hmm and. They're impressionable. Maybe they'll just say, forget it. I'm gonna change that I don't care, which is great. Or you might actually embed in their brain, which is possible that they may tin that's so mutable and they have no power over the exactly. 

[00:41:12] And you don't wanna do that. So I'm, I do my very best. Um, I keep on, I'm like watching myself to make sure that I'm not doing those things with my children as much as I can without. Too hard on myself, which is really important, but being as aware as I can. So I, I, I will gently reassess and I, I, I don't want anybody listening to think that, oh my God, David must be obsess obsessive about things. 

[00:41:37] No, I'm not, but I I've. I've learned to observe and I take time and it's always a balance for me. It's, uh, you know, people talk about ying and yang. It's like day is busy and a day is quiet and a day is busy. And, you know, there's moments in time, like gaps in the music it's it's and things that are important. 

[00:41:55] I make habits, whether it's movement, whether it's time with family, whether it's time to talk with friends, uh, another great habit. I literally had to make it a habit of my own awareness was taking the time each day to, to call a friend call not. Actually reach out and see how they're doing. And if they're not available, just leave a message to keep that connection. 

[00:42:15] That's always on my to-do list. Yeah. And literally put it on my calendar to call a certain person at a certain time. When I think I might have some free, a free few minutes. Yeah. And I would say eight times outta 10, I look at that reminder and I quiet the reminder and I don't do it. Mm. Even though I know, I really want to. 

[00:42:35] Yeah. I don't. And I haven't figured out exactly why that's something I'm working on. Okay. We all have our things and I'm not perfect on it either, but it's like, we all have our things. Yeah. We have to forgive ourselves for being human, forgive ourselves for making mistakes for sometimes making unhealthy or unwise choices and learning from. 

[00:42:56] Exactly. And, and we, we talked, I don't think we talked in the recording about the serenity prayer, right? Yeah. We didn't. We talked before for those people listening, you might have heard the phrase, the serenity prayer, and there's different versions of it. And I think it was Dr. Neber a gentleman who wrote it originally now for some people they may not like it it's part of a lot of the 12 step programs. 

[00:43:16] Yes, it is. Exactly. And I mean, and there's great value in the, in the concept of 12 step program or the first step that somebody's doing. If they have a challenge in their life is. Except that it's actually exists. Mm-hmm , you know, I think believe that's the first step. The serenity prayer that I remember in my brain is, uh, God, give me the serenity to accept the things. 

[00:43:37] I cannot change the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Got it. That is a lot of power in there. You can eliminate the God for some people there's too much stuff going on, but it's the whole idea of recognizing, you know, what is it that I can change in my life? 

[00:43:54] Mm-hmm what is it that I can't change in my life? And then being wise enough to know that there, the difference between them, I know I can change my behavior. So, and I can't change the behavior of other, other people. That's a start right now. If I have a financial crisis or if I don't have work or I have a problem relationship, I can take steps step by step baby steps to work on fixing that because it will have a snowballing effect, no matter what age you're at. 

[00:44:22] Like people run into financial struggles. And I had times in my life that that existed, but once I was moving in the right direction and not self sabotaging, things worked out. Yeah. So never to give up because it's always possible. And I believe like when the world is constantly moving towards creating peace, we're moving away from war. 

[00:44:43] And at this moment in time, we, we live in a world where there is war still going on, but it's and just happening, but we need to move in one direction by our actions. Absolutely. Moving away from something is also moving towards something. Exactly. And we get to choose what we move towards. yes. And there's a great phrase that, um, I think it was Maria Williamson said maybe she got it from somebody else. 

[00:45:10] Love is letting go of fear. Yeah. And it's you, when we that's profound, it's very, very profound because when we have fear about anything, we, we, we kind of suffocate ourselves. Mm-hmm . But when we have a, have a, a much more openness to possibility to love we move forward, whether it's, you know, maybe someone's listening here and taking cheese, you know, that person that I know, I see all the time, I wanna ask them out on a date, the fear is of rejection, but you know what? 

[00:45:41] I've been rejected many times in my life. So I just, I just say, okay, whatever, right. If you know, I don't, I don't have a, I don't have a problem with rejection. I don't have a problem with failure. The only thing I have a problem with is not doing something. I think I wanna try. Yeah. To me the what if isn't what happened? 

[00:45:58] What, what if it. Works out in disaster for me. It's what if I didn't do it? And I regret it? Yes. So I just go for it and if I figure it out along the way then great. And if it doesn't work out, I'll do something else, you know, wonderful harm, no foul, you know? Exactly. It's very courageous and that's, that's part of the whole process too, is the courage to do this. 

[00:46:19] Yeah. Wonderful. So, so let's talk more about forgiveness, forgiveness of other people, forgiveness of ourselves. How, how do we do that? I mean, I have my own techniques, but I would like to hear what, what you do or what you recommend. Wow. cause so many of us beat ourselves up into an early grave, you know, like, yes, we don't let ourselves ever off the hook for being human and making mistakes or not being our best selves in a given moment. 

[00:46:46] How do we, how do we learn how to extend that compassion inward? Okay. I'm thinking cause I. Yeah. I've thought about a lot of this in my own life. There's one way that I, I deal with it, Marcy, which is something I've shared in a different context before. Is that what if I don't forgive myself? What will be the consequences? 

[00:47:12] Oh. And that applies in many different parts of our life. So it's quite a universal tool in a sense that if I make a mistake, let's say in a relationship and I don't make forgiveness with myself or behavior that I've had or consequences that I'm responsible for. I can not forgive myself and never have another good relationship again, in that context. 

[00:47:36] Mm-hmm , if I want that to be the rest of my life, then I don't forgive myself. But if I forgive myself, because I look into the future and say, if I want to have this happen in the future, I need to forgive myself. Right. It's an essential item. And if we don't learn how to forgive ourselves and let things go. 

[00:47:57] Learn from it. We will not forgive other people. We mirrored in our own behavior. So that's gonna destroy the flower that you want to hold in your hand. So that would be this very simple answer to you. That's how we're looking at it. Yeah. So we will hold you back. What do you, what do you do to find forgiveness in somebody who has really hurt you or somebody you love and doesn't repent and doesn't feel like what they did was wrong, but you're so angry and consumed with. 

[00:48:30] I'm still angry and consumed, or they are still angry and concerned. You are, let's say you are, what, what do you do to release that? You know, like there's all this like Buddhist stuff about mm-hmm, releasing the anger and letting it go and forgiving because if you are perseverating over it, it's really only hurting you and hurting your life. 

[00:48:48] It's not hurting the other person cuz they don't give a shit how you feel anyway. Yes. Which I get and there are some moments where I feel elevated and hopeful and I can overlook, you know, you did X, Y, and Z. It hurt me. I I'm, I'm letting it go because I can't think about it anymore because I can't give it any real estate bandwidth space in my brain. 

[00:49:19] I'm done with that. And there are other moments where I'm still really fricking pissed off. And, and I guess maybe that's normal, the ebb and flow of that. As long as I don't let it take over, it's probably fine. What do you think? I think what you just said, like, as long as you don't let it take over, it is fine. 

[00:49:42] And for me, I look at, I don't know exactly what's going on in someone else's mind is what I will say to somebody. And I'll say this now, do you really know? And we can guess, but we we're only guessing we'll never really know of, so why somebody would've done something that really hurt me. And I've had people do stuff that has hurt me, but I don't understand fully what happened because they've never totally explained it. 

[00:50:08] So if I decide to be attached to that, impossible to understand situation. It's only gonna hold me back and have a line of attachment, kinda like the Buddhist thing you mentioned between me and them. And yet they're probably, it may nothing to them. I mean everything to me. So what I will do sometimes I have a phrase that I use, which is I say true love on the fire. 

[00:50:31] Meaning that in response, instead of throw hatred or anger, I will just, you know, it's in a way of letting it go, not to say that the person may have done something that like, I mean, people have done some horrible things to people, but will I allow that experience to take over my life? Is it gonna be healthy for me? 

[00:50:53] Where am I gonna go in my life? If I'm always gonna carry that anger. And I sense that in other people where I will meet people and they're still angry yeah. Of, of something like they cannot involve themselves in new relationships. Cause they're still angry at. People before still holding grudges and wasting energy and time. 

[00:51:13] Yes. Yeah. And it's really sad because part of them wants something new and refreshing in their life, but part of them is still attached to that. So as a, as I kind of went back to before, I'm probably answering it with the same idea and I'm no expert on this is, is to how, if I don't forgive the other person or, or I forgive myself and that, that attachment go, it's gonna be damaging to me. 

[00:51:41] And I'm probably gonna take it out there and damage other people with it or lose opportunities because it it's easy to weaponize that sort of thing. Yes. Because what happens if I, if I'm by my own expression of myself, teaching to those people around me, that you can't forgive. And I hear that. I'm always shocked when I hear people that in certain contexts they're super wise and very knowledgeable. 

[00:52:04] And then they tell me about, um, not a Marial, but a personal relationship, a family member where they will, I've decided I'll never speak to this person again for the rest of my life. And I'm like, really? That's that's okay. But really it's tough. I mean, I had to make that decision when my mother was suffering from opiate addiction. 

[00:52:23] Yeah. She became someone else. The addiction kills the woman who was my mother and her addicted body was taking on a different personality in order to save myself and my kids. I had to separate. Yeah. But you know, in recent years I've learned some stuff about my dad that his past behavior and. I was so enraged and so hurt and, you know, things, I just wanted to forget. 

[00:52:53] I, I just wanna unhea that. And, and I, I had a couple of weeks after a series of these very torturous, toxic, awful conversations with him. I had a couple of weeks where I was like, I don't know if I can continue a relationship with him. I don't know if I can find love and respect for him again, like this was so damaging. 

[00:53:11] Wow. And I talked about it with my therapist. I wrote about it endlessly. I painted myself, you know, so my fingers were rainbows. And, um, eventually over time I was able to put it into perspective. And this is all recent. Like, you know, since, since February of 2020, you know, this is all really recent stuff. 

[00:53:34] And I've able, I've been able to sort of get more compassionate about his life. and why he made the choices and decisions that he made based on the available information he had at the time. And none of it was really directed towards me. Like all of the things that I found, incomprehensibly, detestable weren't things that involved me at all. 

[00:54:02] It was all stuff that he had done outside of his relationship with me. It was stuff that he relat in relationship with my mom, who he got divorced to for divorced from in the eighties and, and earlier even. So none of it was necessary for him to even share with me in the first place. Um, and so I, I started to really think about him as a person and where he came from and what his parents were like and what emotional intelligence tools he had about himself. 

[00:54:38] And it made me seek, gave me perspective. It made me see. That he was, he's just a human man flawed, like everyone else, trying to figure out how to bring joy into his own life and mitigate his pain. And I can't really fault him for making decisions that I wouldn't make because we're different people who come at it from different perspectives, with different tools and talents and so on. 

[00:55:06] And ultimately I was able to let it go because it doesn't have anything to do with our present relationship. And it took me a couple of months, you know, the pandemic was sort of good, well timed for this because this conversation was in February of 2020. And then by March of 2020, we were all separated anyway. 

[00:55:26] So I had the whole pandemic of being separated from him to give myself time to readjust my thinking. Yes, so that when we were able to get back together and now we're fine, our relationship's totally okay. You know, and that doesn't beautiful really get in the way anymore, but it was a lot of mental gymnastics to, to allow myself the perspective and the patience and the peace and the quiet to listen inward, and really think about relentless, kindness, and compassion, how, and how to put all of this into place, you know, how to make sense out of it. 

[00:56:08] Um, that was very courageous Marcy and not easy. And I have to honor you for that, cuz it is a huge thing to do and not everybody will do the work. No, but it takes great courage to do it. And, and I want to make it clear that when I, when I say to people that I'm surprised, but uh, when I said, you know, people say they won't talk to a person again, but one of the important things that you did is that. 

[00:56:31] So you, you left the opportunity for something to arrive again, the relationship to return and time, you know, the old saying time does heal because when we, but the time with this space in between mm-hmm, helps give us this perspective as well. I mean, really, if people are in bad relationships and there's multiple situations would have, they need to be outside that space, you can't keep on putting yourself into a toxic situation. 

[00:56:57] No, a situation that you're just not comfortable with. And as I, it's hard to make a healthy decision from within inside that. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And, and this is something that, um, when you, you can kind of. Gauge it, because when you're in a conversation with somebody and you, uh, that you spend time with, and after you spend time with them, you feel energized and you feel good. 

[00:57:18] Mm-hmm that gives you a feeling that's a good relationship. But if every time you meet somebody and you feel drained and exhausted afterwards. Yeah. That's not so much, that's not good. So it, that experience you can use as kind of like a metering system to go, okay, I need to spend less time with that person until I understand what's going on here. 

[00:57:36] And it could be, because for example, I had somebody tell me recently and was really interesting, and it goes back to the parenting thing where they found that they'd gone off their path. They changed their values because of the relationship they were in and they'd, they lost their center. And now they're back on track. 

[00:58:00] They're following their values. They feel so good and the world has changed around them. And I said to them, Bravo, I said, that's so cool. Exactly. I love hearing these stories, but they had to do work. Yeah, this shit does not happen on its own. No. Yeah, you can give time. You can give space to people, but like if you give space, but you don't work on it. 

[00:58:23] Um, whether it's even just, um, seeing it's possible that, you know, things can be resolved you next time you meet them, you you're probably just gonna be at each other again. Like, I don't believe, uh, you can do it without, I mean, time will help space will help, but there is some work that needs to be done. 

[00:58:42] Uh, at least if it's an openness to have a conversation with them again. And I know that somebody else at once asked me for advice said, you know what? I haven't talked to this person in weeks. How should I start a conversation with them? Just let them talk is what I said. Yeah, you can. So you know what? 

[00:58:57] Say we haven't spoken in weeks and I don't know where to begin right now. Yeah. How do we restart this? Yeah. Ask the question to the person. Yeah, not a third person. You don't have to rehearse it. Exactly. Just go in there. Be authentic. Yeah. I don't know what the hell to do now. Yesterday. I was really pissed at you and I don't wanna be pissed anymore. 

[00:59:14] How do we move forward? Yeah. And to understand why things happen because, uh, find, I find it very interesting that there's one friend of mine that, um, it makes me smile. They told me that, uh, you know, we all hang out as a group and she told me that, oh, I always spend all the time. I spend, you know, with my friends and I balance that out. 

[00:59:36] And the next time I'm in a relationship, I'll make sure I spend time with all my friends. Now she's in a new relationship. She's vanished and I'm like, Hmm. Unreachable person. So, but I'm like, that's. that's where they're at right now. So like, uh, we don't always know what we're doing when we're in these. 

[00:59:57] Just be the honeymoon phase of a new relationship and then things balance out again. Yeah, yeah. So wonderful person that she is, but I just thought that's that makes me smile because she said, oh, I'll never do that, but she actually did it, but we all do things like that and there's where we have to go. 

[01:00:12] Oh, okay. So, and, and I'm pretty sure that, uh, the next time that I see her, because she's really unavailable now, she's like so busy. Um, that she'll probably go, yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're right. It wasn't really around, but that's okay. You know? Right. She's yeah, that's great. I mean, and that's UN that's, I don't know the full details, you know? 

[01:00:31] Um, I mean, I'll reach out and if you needed her and you called her she'd. Yeah. And I would, I mean, I, I will send a message to say, I'm thinking about you so they know that you're still around. Right. But if they're busy doing whatever they're doing in their new relationship and that's great, but that's is, again, is another level, instead of saying, how come I could choose to say why they neglecting me? 

[01:00:51] How come they're not calling me? No, it doesn't matter. It's not, it's not about I've stuff in my life. Keep scored. Well, I called you last time. So it's up to you to call me this time. Oh gosh. You, I think the fricking hell has time for that. Yeah. If you're thinking, let someone contact them. If you're not then don't, but this keeping score stuff really. 

[01:01:10] Yeah, actually, that's a huge thing. I remember hearing Tony Robbins actually said that if you're an accountant in a relationship, you'll you destroy all the relationships that you have. Right. And that's an accountant where I did this for you. Once you should do it now. And it's like, and, but that's running in your head. 

[01:01:25] You're not gonna say it to them, but you get angry because they don't do what you do. But you know what, when you do what you do, because you love to do it, that's great. But if you're doing it with the expectation of someone else doing it, that's not right. No. And, and, and actually for a completely different person to Tony Robbins, Warren buffet, I remember Warren buffet once said, he said, have very high expectations of yourself and very low expectations of other people. 

[01:01:47] Yeah. Then you'll be happy cuz you can control what's going on with you. And I just thought that's so simple, but that's beautiful. That's true. Yeah. It's true. And then you get to be surprised by other people's kindness. Because you're not expecting it. Exactly. Actually. And I can give you an example of that. 

[01:02:06] Um, without too much detail, one friend called me and they out in the blue, like it was a phone call. We talk regularly, but out of the blue, they called me and it was like, they explained to me that they'd done something that they felt it was incorrect when we were talking before, because we were talking about something and they said, uh, oh, I've never done that. 

[01:02:28] And I just went know, it's just a part of the conversation, but they actually called me back a week later to say, no, actually I have done that. And I should have told you the truth. And I have no idea why I didn't do this, tell you that. And I was like, okay. And I talk, but I was like super impressed that they called me to say that I hadn't. 

[01:02:43] I mean, I had no expectation, no nothing. I didn't, it was not attached to me. I had no idea the information, but you, once you, once you Don. F like, hold it against the person and say, okay, that's their choice. They did that. That's fine. And in fact it's okay. And, and in fact, when they came back to me and said that they'd done something, it was simply put, it was to do a copyright. 

[01:03:04] And, and I said, uh, like I thought, wow, that took great courage for you to call me back. And I'm, I really appreciate that you trust me enough to share that you feel comfortable enough to be in that space, which is what you Marcy have talked about with your students, which is wonderful. And with your children, when you develop that space where they feel comfortable enough to share with you. 

[01:03:26] So all of what we've talked about in, in this discuss chat conversation, whatever way we want to frame it in terms of outside of the wonder technique, which is really core principles, is the idea of just letting life be doing the best that we can. Mm-hmm accepting ourselves and letting people be around us the way they are, and that judging all freedom and peace to be found. 

[01:03:50] Oh, yeah, it really is. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So I normally, um, conclude each, uh, interview with, uh, seven quick questions, but since you're a repeat guest, I came up with new questions for you. Wonderful. Let's do this. Okay. What is one of the things that you pray that you have imparted to your kids? 

[01:04:18] Honesty. Excellent. That's everything. Yeah, because, uh, if I, even if I, like, as I just mentioned there, if I something comes outta my mouth, like where that's not true, I'll say, no, that's not true. I don't, no, this is what happened. Like sometimes we embellish things like, you know, the fish was this size, not this, like, so it's, to be honest. 

[01:04:40] And even when it's uncomfortable. Yeah. I heard, um, on another podcast, uh, the author Elizabeth Gilbert said. Let's hope I don't miss this up. She said that, that, what did she say? Oh my God, it's falling outta my head now. Um, that, that every truth you tell is a kindness. Even if it makes people uncomfortable and every lie you tell is an unkindness, even if it makes people comfortable. 

[01:05:10] Wow. And I thought that was so profound. Yeah. Cause ultimately you're gonna get to that truth at some point anyway. So why go through all of the uncomfortable? Why, why stretch it out? You know, like I, I grew up being a peacemaker in my, in my dysfunctional family and I wasn't honest because dishonesty kept the status quo and made me feel safe. 

[01:05:41] You know? Like I didn't tell people how I feel and I didn't. Pay attention to my own needs because I was always trying to mitigate somebody else's mood and ultimately telling somebody the truth in the moment, even if it is awkward and uncomfortable, ultimately is more kind to everyone involved and gets you to understanding and equilibrium and peace faster. 

[01:06:08] Yeah. Brilliant. Okay. Um, for what do you want to be remembered? 

[01:06:18] Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is that I did my best to be the best at I could be to my children. That's yeah. It all comes down to that. All comes down to that. Yeah. What is your favorite movie? 

[01:06:32] Oh, my gosh. Okay. The first, one of the most recent movies that I've seen multiple, it's not that recent, but I really enjoyed was interstellar she's a few years old. Oh, that was good. It was a great movie. And what I really appreciated about it was that when they did Gargan the, the black star, the black hole. 

[01:06:50] Yeah. The, um, yeah, the black hole was, they actually used real scientific data to generate that image. And there's a lot of consistent physics in the actual movie. And part of the movie is incomprehensible and I like movies that are hard. Like inception was really good. Mm-hmm, where I was like to try where I had to kind of get around it. 

[01:07:11] And another movie that I saw recently on that same line was, um, uh, oh, it will come to me tenant. One of my sons really likes it, where it is reversal of time, but it's, it's. It's it's well, people can listen is I like things that make me think about the potential of experiences that I don't understand, which can help me grow in my understanding of who I am and those people around me. 

[01:07:38] So thinking about impossible things. So that was a big answer to a small question, but I, I I'm answering my first response, so there probably that's good. That's what I want. But Intertel was the first one that popped up, which I, I like cool. What was your favorite vacation? Oh, this is when I took a trip and I went to a lot of different places, including in the hi lays in Northern Pakistan. 

[01:08:00] Uh, it was close to the base camp, no, went to the base camp of Naga par about, which was at 4,000 meters. And I went there from 3000 meters to 4,000 meters on my own crossing, um, a glacier that was creaking and cracking and moving. That seems scary. Yeah. Um, and Naga Parbat is, is in the movie seven years into be where Brad pit goes to climb Naga Parbat. 

[01:08:24] So it was in that region. It's close to K2 in Northern Pakistan as against Everest being in different location. And, uh, that was part of a trip where I went to many different countries, but we spent a mountain in what's called a Northern territories. Um, it's north of Pakistan, which most people don't go to when they go to Himalayas and it was spectacular. 

[01:08:42] It was very remote. And I, I have a photograph of a sign that says Paso, which was 160 kilometers from the Chinese border. So that's how high up we were. Wow. So yeah, I will never, this feels like it was yesterday and it was, you know, a dozen years ago, but I've got great memories of that holiday. That sounds amazing. 

[01:09:01] Um, name one simple ordinary moment in your life. That brings you joy. Oh, wow. I can, how can I say it's ordinary? , it's a great joy for me to have this conversation with you conversation, which, you know, conversations like this conversations. Um, because we don't know each other that well, but conversations with my friends, um, no disrespect to you, but people who know me we've met twice and yeah, we met twice, but so, you know, these are the things that create great richness. 

[01:09:33] The conversations have with my children, my friends, you know, those things. These are the most fulfilling moments in my life. I always feel great. Beautiful, beautiful. What's your favorite book or a book that you might go back to and reread many times that changed your way of. Unquestionably one book that, uh, there's two books, but one book that I, I know I often share about is from, by KGA brand the prophet. 

[01:10:02] And I just talked about it actually, for those people listening. Uh, I was talking to a friend who was going through some challenges in, in a relationship and KGA brand. If I remember correctly, he does little vignettes of like a page and a half, and one is on children. One is on marriage, one is on food. 

[01:10:17] And one of once he talks about in a relationship that if PE you imagine that there's. Two pillars, two columns and a, and a roof above it. When the two columns are too close, the roof will fall. And this is a symbolism for a relationship. If people are too enmeshed beside each other all the time, and there's no space to relationship will kill itself. 

[01:10:35] So I remember KA Gand many of his different phrases about the importance of that. I think when he talks about children, he talks about parenting where your job is to release the child into the world, to give them support and let them go. And so there's some beautiful phrases inside of that book. What's the title, the prophet, the prophet, right? 

[01:10:57] Yeah. It's a tiny little book it's really small. And you, you find it in multiple languages. And I think, um, Cal GBR was from Libya, but it's, and you, you don't even have, you don't even need to know the name of a person, their history or anything, but it's a, it's a book full. Really interesting things to think about the approach to food, the approach to money, the approach, like he's got all these little sections and where I am right now. 

[01:11:22] I know where my copy is. It's in the other room on the shelf. Uh, so I don't have it within hands reach, but often it is throughout my day. Interesting. And I, yeah. So the profit. Yeah. Awesome. I'm gonna add that to the, I have a, a permission to heal podcast bookshop on a website called bookshop.org. And I've added all of my guests, the books that they have written and many of the books that they have recommended and then purchases from the bookshop dot from the permission to heal bookshop podcast@bookshop.org gets sourced from local in independent bookshops rather than big gigantic companies like Amazon. 

[01:11:59] So it helps support local bookstores, which is great. Awesome. So I'm gonna add that to. To the bookshop. Um, and then last question is, I don't know if you're a TV. These are great questions. No one's ever asked me these questions. Oh, good, good, good. What TV shows are you binging or loving? We talked about movies a little bit, but well, you got me there. 

[01:12:18] I don't generally watch TV at all. I watch movies, but I guess today you doesn't watch TV at all. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's very rare. I used to not watch TV. I read so much when I, when I was single, there was kid TV on when my kids were little. Yeah. Or, you know, like teenage TV, whatever they were watching, but I didn't watch anything. 

[01:12:37] And since I got married, my husband has sort of encouraged me. We've been sharing shows together that that could be can't make us think and, and so on. So it's yeah. I, I guess there's probably TV that would open up my mind to things, but. No, there's, there's no TV. okay. I do have a TV that we watch movies on, but I don't watch any series or stuff like that, so, yeah. 

[01:13:00] Okay. Fair enough. There you go. That was beautiful. Great questions. Thank you. Yeah, I love that. That's a real interesting way to end cuz last time I think we started with questions. So now we end the movie. Yeah, it was my, I was, when I first started the podcast last year, I was a little nervous about how to get into conversations. 

[01:13:18] Mm-hmm once I was in a conversation, I was fine, but I didn't, I wasn't comfortable beginning. So I would start with the questions as a way of a, as a launch point. And, and now I, I do them at the end cuz it seems more organic. And you make it so natural. It's like we're having a conversation. I'm got to keep on kind of David we're on a podcast here, we're recording this. 

[01:13:41] Like we're just having a conversation conversation. This is I love. Yeah. And, and, and it's wonderful. And I do hope that those people that are taking the time to listen to this, as we share, have found something of value in their life. That is my, and ultimately, maybe it'll just be the enjoyment of a conversation. 

[01:13:58] Exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for coming back and, and spending another hour with me. This was so great, David, my pleasure and my honor, mercy, thank you for sharing. As I like to say, you shared time with me, which is sharing a piece of your life. Awesome. Thanks so much. Thank you.